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Maybe I should have gone to cafepress and had the merchandise made up while I had the chance... Like attacking in a bike race, in life, timing is everything.
GeWilli - This one is for you. This pretty much confirms what you already knew; Graber uses WaldoMart grade components in their $800 hub. Can you say profit margin? This has to go down in history as one of the greatest guerilla marketing campaigns ever. I don't think I've ever seen an ad for a PT. The original maker, Tune, gave hundreds of these away, mostly to coaches and other persons of influence. The internet did the rest. Of course, I'd have probably written rave reviews too, if I got it for free.
You can't blame them for making as much as possible off of this in their limited window of opportunity. It shouldn't be long before a more capable and lower cost manufacturer comes along and blows them out of the market with a $399 unit that actually works in the rain. The $1500 wireless unit is another example of their marketing savvy. Now, I'm no EE, but the price difference between a wired bike computer and a wireless is about $30. So you have to ask yourself, why the $600 bump in price over the wired model? Hmmmm, maybe they took this opportunity to upgrade the cones and bearings, eh? That ought to have eaten up another $100, tops (hell, an entire Dura Ace hub ain't much more than that). The only real answer is, the market would bear it. In fact, since most of the wireless customers are probably existing users who either can't wait to get out the plastic, or are fed up with reliability issues, Graber did them a favor by not depressing the price of used wired units on ebay.
So JB, there you go. NegaCoach isn't against scientific training and training with power per se, it's the transformation of cycling from a sport of cheap fucks who'd sprint for a $5 prime into a high hype boutique sport of well-heeled posers that gets his retrogrouch crew cut standing up straight. If you want real irony, look at your breakaway hombe from Wells Ave last week who broke out the 404's for a crashfest training race with a can of Shaklee first place prize. Some guys from the ski business told me years ago this would happen some day...
What do you "need" to be a racer? I don't know, I guess everyone has a right to set their own priorities. I know some power meter owners who've never sprung for a massage, who own two pair of riding shorts, and don't own wheels for training. They can recite their CP20, but have never had an ECG and don't have any idea what their HCT or their blood pressure is for that matter. That's not scientific training, IMHO.
Their was an article on boston.com a few days ago about the youth of today being more susceptible to marketing than those in the past. Think it's true? Marketing: getting people to work at a job they don't like in order to buy stuff they don't need. Or something like that. Thanks for reading!
So are you saying even your new and improved model fell apart after 3000 miles?
ReplyDeleteTalked to another guy Sunday who had this happen. He said Graber told him "this is the first one we've seen where that happened."
I'm with you Solo - as someone in the technology and business world, I see things in a similar way as you (and as for gewilli's comment: I *do* my homework - and I *still* agree with Solo).
ReplyDeleteThere are many things you can use to race better, but all you really *need* ... is heart.
Graber made shitty bike racks, Hollywood, for years. I always thought them dubious. From exploding CyClops trainers to Saris (RhodeGear?) Bones I always thought they were a fringe company.
ReplyDeleteTrue story: First road race I did, I'm parked at the start b/w a guy on his carbon trek, and a guy with some other carbon ride. I say to Carbon guy, 'nice day for a race, eh?'. He takes a look at my dirty $1000 Giant OCR1 (a fine bike, I raced it until last year), looks down (hairy legs), further down (mtb shoes), looks at me ... and turns away. I'll always remember that jackass.
ReplyDeleteRe 404 guy? Hell, if you have 404s laying around the house, why not bring them? He was there to get into a breakaway and work on that. Those are the guys that keep bike shops running... not cheapskates like me who get an Alu rim on Ultegra.
Don't get me started on the Powertap - if you're looking for a good training tool, this is it (and your HR monitor isn't) - especially if you do some time trials.
ibike - waste of $$ as it doesnt really work (lots of rough pavement around here)
ReplyDeletewhen a legit power meter costs that much, i'll be all over it.
heck, a used srm amateur can be had on ebay for a decent price, but like solo said, you dont really need one unless you really know what you are doing and are "training scientific" --> but that takes the fun out of it, don't it? i broke my hrm a week ago and have enjoyed training sooo much more than worrying constantly where the hr was out on the road. we will see how that pans out this weekend (if the snow holds off and we can race maybe) but isnt fun what we aiming for at the end of the day?
- j
The PT just doesn't have a good enough value/utility/quality mix to justify the price to me. The SRM sounds a lot better, but the price is out of my league. As far as HRM's go, you can look in my archives for rants about the assumptions power advocates always seem to make when they discuss training with someone who uses an HRM and not PT. Experience counts for a lot. The HRM is nothing more than feedback, and after using one off and on for twenty years, that feedback is useful to me, as I understand the variables (other than actual "work" being done) and can put the feedback into the proper context. This isn't much different than the medical software I work with every day. The computer can show the doctor a lot of things, and even make some recommendations, but ultimately it's their decision what to do. Cyclists measure power because they can, but runners, XC skiers, and speed skaters all find ways to train effectively without it.
ReplyDeleteAs for wheels, I see this as no different than any other sport that uses technology. If the use of technology was limited by the rules, then the competition would remain among the athletes and not the equipment. If everyone in the pack has 404s instead of old school wheels, then nobody has any advantage, but the pack is collectively $80,000 poorer, and Zipp is $80,000 richer. The feds could have nipped this in the bud ten years ago, but they didn't. I'll agree, if you're in the break on wire wheels and everyone else has TT wheels, you're screwed. I know some people run their race wheels at the training races because they couldn't keep up without them. This just drives up the cost for everyone, and keeps some good athletes out of the sport because they can't afford it, or just can't justify the expenditure. So I guess whoever is left gets "better" on a relative basis, because the pool is watered down. That's all sour grapes, shame on me, but then we have instances like the Wachusett circuit race a few years back. The road surface was, well, not so good. That's bike racing. Yet we had dozens of riders pissed at the promoter because they broke their carbon wheels to pieces. How dare he put on a bike race on a less than pristine surface? That's bullshit. The flyer stated that the road sucked, but they brought their TT wheels anyway (I think some of them don't own anything else). Boo hoo.
If the PT gets more people to actually show up at TTs, awesome. The district 40K TT is another victim of technology. Back in 1987 we got around 400-500 riders in this event. Some people had disc wheels, but that was about it. Now, since you need a dedicated bike and $2500 wheelset to be competitive, most riders have an excuse to skip it, and in fact last year we didn't even have 40K in New England due to lack of interest. That's progress...
From someone who had a powertap and gave it away (to a former girlfriend) I can say I've had much better success hiring a coach then spending $1000 on a PT.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Solo - experience counts. And I received that with a coach. His insight and experience were invaluable at times. Way more valuable than how many watts I am producing. Because lets face it, it doesn't matter how many watts you are producing. It just matters that you can beat someone.
I chuckle at the iBike. Not sure what to think. Seems gimmicky, but some reviews actually give it a thumbs up.
I had an idea a few years back called "power pedals" where you put a strain gauge in a your pedals and then you can measure the force of each leg independently. Ha. Never got further than an ugly prototype which didn't work. I figured that might get the power meters down to a low enough cost for "the people" to use power. But again - I see so many good athletes not using power and doing far far better than I.
And this is CAT 3 and CAT 4 racing! We're no pros here people..
Ibike = bad.
ReplyDeleteAgreed on the expense of carbon wheels... but that's the nice thing too: If you know what your'e doing, you can do stuff on the cheap (e.g., use a disk cover which is just as good as your Zipp disk).
If you look around, you can get a used SRM Amateur for about 1300-1400, btw.
good point re HR monitors. unfortunately people mostly don't know what cardiovascular drift is.
Take a look at the USCF record book. There has not been a 40K TT record set, male or female, elite or master, in 8 years. Surely wheels now are faster, helmets way faster, bikes and frames way more aero. So what is going on? We have the entire country training with power. This is supposed to be so much more effective than training without it. So how come the TT times aren't plummeting?
ReplyDeleteI don't really think it the fast times of the past were due to doping either (although I don't doubt some of the record holders may have used 'roids). At the local/district level, I don't see people getting much faster either.
Before someone else points it out, I guess the fact we don't have 40K Nationals every year anymore has something to do with it...
ReplyDeleteSL - i could only dream of such lofty luxury, not to mention the SL 2.4
ReplyDeleteboulder - well said...
those without often will have a very hard time overlooking the folks who can dump cash on a set of 404s without flinching or saving for a couple years...
And that, while possible to overcome, and often fuel for the have-nots, can be discouraging some.
Making wallet equal to genetics in the equation of going fast is wrong in competition IMHO. Just as you can go buy designer drugs if you got the cash, going out and dropping ten grand on new wheels to beat the next guy, just cause you can, shouldn't be part of sport.
But it is.
Where to draw the line...
I dunno - if solobreak was more of a country music fan he should be writing some old sappy ballad about not having a powertap so all him and his kind like cturd who gave away his and has been trying to tell himself that he doesn't need it for any reason at all, so they can all feel better about not having it...
and waterproof electronics? No WAY... /sarcasm
Maybe Saris is looking for some crappy cross racer to sponsor with full SL 2.4... maybe i should polish up my lack of resume ;)
For full disclosure, Bold is sponsored by both Zipp and PowerTap, although he also bought these products with his own money before hitting the big time. He is well-heeled, even if he does have small hands and feet, but he is NOT a poser. He seems humble and trains his ass off. He is on the Paleo diet, and thus shuns dairy.
ReplyDeleteSolobreak is sponsored by Stonyfield Farms, a dairy products company, and eats 3 quarts of their yogurt a week, whether or not he pays $3.99/quart at Roche Bros, or steals it out of Feltslave's garage. He drives a 97 Geo with 196,000 miles on it, and even though he loves the sport, he races for prize money to offset his entry fees and pay for his yogurt habit.
further full disclosure, gewilli and solobreak are good sports, i try to be, although, i should not be commenting after midnight when i can't sleep, because, apparently i GET A LITTLE CRANKY!
ReplyDeletesolobreak doin' a country tune to 'love don't get me no powah'... i'd buy that.
oh, and put in a few product placements for Stonyfield Dairy in the song video too... worked for me...
"Well I was drunk,
ReplyDeletethe day my mom-ma,
got out of prison,
and I went,
to pick her up,
in the rain.
But before, I could git to the station in my pick-up truck..."
Bold, if that's your cranky, no wonder the Pdawgs made you their leader. Friendly little bunch...
So here's the big question - You get caught with a 17 year old triathlete on your man couch. Since you have a good lawyer, you plea bargain your way down to a choice of giving up the Zipp wheels and using nothing but 32 hole wire wheels, or giving up the power meter, for two years. Which one would it be?
I only ask because last night there was a Simpson's rerun with Homer as King Solomon.
country - not blues...
ReplyDeleteblues = sophistication
country = um...
rascal flats
(i get chills of pure repulsion even typing that name)
And yeah - Bold... i wanna know...
Zipps or Tap?
do i get to keep the 17 year old in either scenario?
ReplyDeletei'd keep the Zipps.
an aero helmet gives you better bang for the buck than aero wheels. but, they're only 200 smackers --everyone should get one. but, there's free watts in those Zipps, which equates to free speed, and you can't give that up!...
in my Ironman, i set my power meter on AVERAGE SPEED... and that's what i stared at for 112 miles!!
it was 20 mph or go home!!!!!!!
oh, and thank god for lawyers.