Wednesday, August 15, 2007

GP4s

Last night, per usual on a Tuesday, I went to Wompatuck. However, as there is a real criterium with substantial prize money tonight in Salem, MA, the turnout was light. No matter, as at least 30 riders showed up. The Skipinator went up the road early, just like last week, and again we had a long chase, though not as fast this time. The pace was decent though, and several laps were done with the field pretty much single file, at least in the front half.

With the Stillwater 40K TT on the horizon Saturday, my goal was to just ride some good tempo and not do any big efforts. Thus, I stayed in the group, and at the back much of the time. I did a few turns in the rotation, and later on even did a few half-lap efforts at speed. Not sure what speed, as I'd swapped wheels before the race and the sensor was not picking up. Why the wheel swap? Well, up until this year, I always made it a point to train, and do training races, on "ordinary" wheels, as in 32 spoke Open 4's. I saved my "race wheels," a pair of Shimano 6500's with a low count of bladed, paired spokes, for real races. Now, for most folks these days, such a pair of wheels would represent their beater wheels, but I'm not most folks. As my current "race wheels" have only Ultegra-level hub internals, I've always tried to keep the mileage on them down. Way back in time, when our race wheels were tubulars and our training wheels were either heavier tubulars or some form of clincher, the wise among us bought expensive hubs for our training wheels, and maybe skimped on the race pair. The logic was that your training wheels would see far more miles, maybe even rainy ones, than the wheels used for racing would. I had plenty of Super Record race wheels too, but I was sort of a wheel whore back then. I hated repacking hubs and by working a few hours here and there at the local shop I could get bro-deal pricing on rims and stuff, so I preferred to just build more wheels and rotate them amongst my stable of bikes. But I knew lots of guys with Dura Ace/MA40s for training and 600 (aka Ultegra)/GEL280 setups for racing.

Back then, if you're pockets weren't deep enough for Campy Record Pave or Mavic SSC rims (I always found Campy rims to be rounder, and easier to build because of a better seam), the standard was the venerable Mavic GP4. This rugged ~400 gram tubular rim was cheap, strong, and still lighter than most clinchers of the day. Everyone had a pair. In fact, in the wheel pit at many crits, there would be so many Record/GP4 wheelsets shod with Vittoria CGs that it would be hard to tell them apart. I once took the wrong pair home after a race, and the other guy (who I still see in masters races) was a TOTAL DICK about it. The jackass was in the 1/2 race, and he had the same number that I wore in the 3's race, so why he was so bent escapes me to this day. But I digress...

Last night I rode on GP4s. These wheels have DuraAce hubs and they came on my cross bike when I bought it from one of the Team Saturn guys a few years back. I glued up some Tufo S33s and they have been sitting in the bike room, rarely used since then. Well, I dragged them out for Mt A and found they had a 12-23 10 speed cassette on them that I do not remember buying. Sweet. At Mt A I did not end up using them, but I had them out so I threw them on the bike before heading to Womp. They are pretty heavy by today's standards, but that is nothing compared to the spoiling I've got from riding aero wheels day in and day out. At speed, man, these wheels are more work. Not that I didn't already know this, but over this year I guess I'd gotten so used to the advantage that is was not an advantage anymore. I still did some hard efforts last night that had people struggling to hold my wheel, but I don't think they had to struggle quite as hard.

There is a lesson here, but I'm not sure what it is. Yeah, I've read elsewhere about how we should all ride deep dish carbon rims all the time in order to become accustomed to them in the crosswinds. Sure dude, it has nothing to do with being able to keep up with your buddies who train more. I still believe in going the other direction; train on heavy stuff so that your "good" stuff feels special in races. It's a mental boost. And it is all relative, as maybe your "heavy" stuff is lighter than my "good" stuff. I wonder how many people even know what GP4s are these days?

Last week I finally caved and bought medium dish carbon rimmed wheels... Still haven't ridden them yet. No more hilly races for me this year anyway. Thanks for reading.

14 comments:

  1. With all the TT stuff going on (Bikeworks and what not) i've been commuting on the "race bike" rather than the croll with the 38c Tourist Tires....

    I've noticed that it takes alot more watts to get the bike to go the same speed. No duh. But... the heavy wheels/training certainly is a very very solid analogy.

    It is hard to discount the comfort level you need to have with deep section rims, but that said, any high mileage rider (5k+ miles a year in my book) should have enough familiarity with the bike that rim width shouldn't be an issue.

    Working harder in training is a good thing. It is to your advantage to have the heaviest crappiest slowest wheels on a training ride. You'll work harder, have to push yourself more, and get a much better work out than those riding their "race" wheels or their "training" deep section wheels.

    That said i still would like to have an intermediate durable more aero than 32 hole round spoke wheels. But cross is coming... i ain't running tubulars and speeds ain't fast enough for deep section wheels to make enough of a difference...

    If ya are dumping money into your "bike stuff" wheels is a good place to start if ya got a decent well fitting frame....

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  2. maybe, we should all ride full suspension mountain bikes for all our training...

    and, mandate solobreak to ride one for his weekly crits.

    and, only allow the light carbon stuff for race day...

    WHY STOP AT A HEAVY SET OF TRAINING WHEELS?

    or,

    you could just ride a harder gear.

    or,

    *gasp*

    train with power.


    i'm just sayin'.

    (did this seem slowtwitchy? i was totally goin' for slowtwitchy...)

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  3. Dude, Bold rides 404's on the wind trainer. He's in another league...

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  4. Actually I think it's a fluid trainer. Probably filled with Louis XIVth Cognac.

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  5. Put it this way. If you go out on a group ride/training race/training TT and are holding 200 watts the whole time comfortably that's good. Gearing won't really matter because you will (with in a range of rpm) produce about what ever power is needed to go as fast as the group.

    Now say you added some super heavy flat resistant 28c tires that are 600 grams heavier (per tire) than the current ones on there...

    And now suddenly you have to produce 240 watts to hang with the group.

    Having light and efficient stuff makes sense racing. But not training. Because watts is watts. Why bother training on expensive aero shit if it don't do you any good? Power is power. Why train on some $90 tire? Why train with some stupid ultra light tube in your clincher when a super heavy one will flat less often?

    *shrug*

    i guess that is making the assumption that you are training...

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  6. that last sentence was supposed to be funny and yeah...

    i know, 404s are to bold like hand me down 10 year old Open 4CD rims are to me...

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  7. JB, that's two "TUFOs suck" references without supporting commentary. Bad experience?

    I don't expect much from cheap tubulars, but the S33 at around $33 seem like pretty good value to me, although I've not put a ton of miles on them. The race wheels are just faster. I feel just as sluggish at Womp if I run open 4's with contis or michelin clinchers. Aero spokes make a big difference.

    I've tried Tufo Cross tubulars too, not the grippiest, the knobs don't wrap far enough around the sides, but they seemed ok, especially when I ran them at super low (<30 psi) pressure like everyone else seems to. Again, half the price of other tires, so I don't expect the world.

    I'm not about to glue $90 tires on the GP4s at this stage of the game, but I sprung for $60 Tufo Elites for the new wheels. They don't look much different from the S33s except they have smooth tread, and they're supposed to be handmade, whatever that means. If they suck, maybe next time I'll go with Veloflex, but it depends what else is competing for my cash when the time comes.

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  8. I think I've seen some of that info before. Another discussion about it that I saw noted that 120 psi was below the minimum recomended by Tufo, and on those charts it looks like they saved a few watts but inflating harder. To me they still feel like steel even at only 8 bar. I'm also not sure how riding on rollers relates to the real world. At any rate, their test is at a fairly high speed (40 kph) and load (100 lb/wheel), and the difference from the highest tubular to the lowest was 11 watts/wheel. I guess that's significant but I don't think it's nearly as much as the difference between an aero wheel and a box rim with round spokes. They also did not test more than one sample and with cheap tubulars they can vary quite a bit, not to mention (as noted by Compton and Zinn) the method and quality of the gluing job makes a big difference. The S33s do make a little noise though, generally noise means energy, right?

    One of my buddies swears by Veloflex clinchers, and Veloflex products seemed to fare pretty well in those tests in general. They are supposed to be made by the craftspeople with the former Vittoria, so that makes sense.

    In my past life I was a prime hunter, and thus I got to sample a lot of cheap tubulars. Most of them were not worth the time it took to glue them on. I also rode for a shop that sold Conti exclusively, and they were junk to me. Never thought they rode well, they didn't glue on straight, and the base tape always peeled off. I love the clinchers though. Not the fastest tire, but very reliable service out on the road. I used them exclusively until I started getting Michelins for free from a sponsored rider who had more than she could use. I liked them and now I used the Megamium2s and they seem pretty good.

    I'll post a pic of the new wheels when I get them glued up and mounted on a bike. It's too late in the season for me to take advantage of them, but one of my teammates is a Trek/Bontrager dealer and he made me an offer I could not refuse on a pair of wheels from a past model year. Similar to 303s in rim profile.

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  9. Bontys. That's nice, I really like their stuff.

    If you search the posts a bit you'll find that generally, the roller data matches the 'road' data although differences are magnified a bit on the rollers. IOW, hard to say about exact watt numbers, but the direction's going to stay the same.
    I won a pair of Service Course Michelins on Saturday, I'm psyched.

    20 Watts is significant. I've had some pretty solid form swings lately (baby and all) and you'll notice 20 watts without looking at a power meter. It's about 0.25 W/kg for me (think about what that means for, say, a lightweight climber type...), and on Coggan's tables, that shifts you upwards pretty far in the 5-min and FT column.

    It may be nerdy, but i like this aspect about bike racing. At the end of the day it's about brute force, but on the way there you can look a lot better if you use your brain.

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  10. And ... holy shit, that is some list of results. Wow.

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  11. The more I read that guy's tire tests, the less impressed I am. At the top of the charts, in the notes, he says "Crr values are typical for very smooth surfaces - Crr on typical road surfaces may be 50 to 100 % higher." There are a couple of ways you could interpret that. His test seems to favor tires with smooth tread. I'd guess some of those might be the ones whose resistance goes up by 100% on asphalt, whereas other with meatier tread are the ones the go up only 50%. If your tires are that bad, you'll find out right away when rolling downhill with others. The tires at top of that list are all expensive models too, and some of them are the same tire listed over and over (Michelin Pro 2's are listed 5 times just because it was a different set). The Tufo S33 is the cheapest tire tested, and he did 2 runs with one set. Not exactly exhaustive testing, especially when the result is so poor it smells like an outlier. Regardless, I wouldn't TT on them, but the fastest tire in the world sucks if you get a flat during a race. I don't even use 150g tires for TTs because I'd rather have more insurance that I'm going to be able to finish.

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  12. you got But Dragger Carbons?

    Niiiiiiice

    FWIW, those conti 28s i rolled in the Mount A TT... they are S L O W

    The fastest set of tires i've ridden have to be some stupid high thread count Klein Prime tires. 23s, and basically Klein stickered panaracers, but the casing is the softest and most supple. Probably consistent with the Veloflex or vito open line... But they are delicate and the rubber is old and that rocky dirt section is not for delicate tires... not to mention i could actually stand in the dirt sections i had so much grip with those 28s...

    solo is very wise not to negate the mental side of things. having the knowledge that the tires are suspect will create a bit of power robbing anxiety that will pretty much erase any advantage gained.

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  13. solo/willi -- keep up!

    i sold my 404s with the P3C.

    now, i have 343s for the pro machine, and 808s for the time machine.

    points to solo though, for correctly identifying the correct fluid in my trainer...

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